837: Swim Towards the Shark
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Prologue: Prologue
Ira Glass
Maybe you saw this story in the news earlier this summer. A man's getting mauled by a shark, maybe 100 yards out from a beach near San Diego. He yells for help, yells "shark." A woman swimming near him also yells. And some guys hear it and swim towards the shark attack to rescue him, which they do. He lives. So, you know, happy ending.
But here's the question. I couldn't stop thinking about this. Who does that? Who hears somebody yell "shark" and swims towards the shark? What kind of person is that?
Cameron Whiting
So I work in real estate development for a company that's based out of LA and Brentwood. We build apartments, hotels, resorts, offices.
Ira Glass
Meet Cameron Whiting, 31, single, newly moved to San Diego. And he was there the morning of the shark attack with a group, the North County Ocean Swimmers, that meets four times a week to swim a mile, mile and a half, or more.
Cameron Whiting
I was out in the water about 100 yards offshore, just past the breaking waves with another swimmer, Kevin Barrett.
Ira Glass
And you guys, had you finished your swim for the day?
Cameron Whiting
Yep. We were done with our swim. Most of the group had made their way in. Some were in the shower. Some were kind of playing in the waves. Kevin and I were body surfing beyond the break, and that's when we heard the screaming.
Ira Glass
How far was it from you?
Cameron Whiting
He was probably 50 to 75 yards from us, so just barely within shouting reach. It was hard for us to hear the screams, but the tone of it was so extreme that we knew something really bad was happening.
Ira Glass
So this is the moment I wanted to ask you about. Somebody yells "shark," and then you swim towards the shark. Could you just talk about that moment?
Cameron Whiting
Yeah, that's one of the moments that, in the four weeks since this has happened, that I just keep replaying. And in the moment, everything happens really quickly, and you don't really have a lot of time to psychoanalyze what's going on and what you're feeling. You just kind of react on instinct. But there are a few options in the moment. And I think, in the second it happened, first of all, Kevin Barrett, who was next to me, he just took off.
Ira Glass
Took off towards the shark, didn't hesitate. But Cameron did hesitate, because Cameron is not only a real estate guy, Cameron is actually this incredible swimmer, the fastest swimmer in this group of ocean swimmers, and also a trained lifeguard who still works as a part-time lifeguard in Los Angeles, where they put you through this rigorous boot camp training, 200 hours over 10 weekends, Lifeguard Academy, including all kinds of ocean rescues.
Cameron Whiting
They taught us in academy that slow is pro.
Ira Glass
Slow is pro. Professionals stop and assess.
Cameron Whiting
So yeah, there was that split second. But my head was just racing with all the scenarios, and it was, one, we need to make sure somebody is going to get backup.
Ira Glass
Backup. He looks to the beach to see if anybody's running to call a medic. Looks like yes. On to scenario two, which he was thinking about because he was actually in the middle of getting recertified as a lifeguard.
Cameron Whiting
So it's funny. You have to watch all these videos, and the video I had just watched the night before was how, as a first responder, you can't swim into-- or you shouldn't respond to an unsafe scene. Scene safety is number one.
And in fact, through our lifeguard training, they even taught us in the academy manual that if there's a shark attack, you're not supposed to swim into it. You're supposed to call your supervisor and wait for help. But that just didn't make sense to me in the moment. I think the more important thing they taught us is that you have to make a judgment call in those difficult circumstances.
Ira Glass
What's so weird about that is that they're saying, like, use your judgment about whether to go in, but what does that even mean in this situation? Like, what data could you be using to make a judgment?
Cameron Whiting
Yeah, for me, it was just years of experience swimming out there, and I felt comfortable. I've swum thousands of miles out there in way sharkier waters, and I've never seen or had an issue with a shark.
And so, even though there was a shark attack, I've heard that when there are shark attacks, usually they bite you, and they kind of spit you out after they realize you aren't what they wanted to eat. And so in my head, I think-- and again, I didn't have a ton of time to analyze this in the moment. But I think the risk of a shark coming back and trying to attack all of us was minimal.
Ira Glass
Wow, that's so interesting. I think you see that differently than most of us civilians do. I mean, I think the thing that I've heard, and I feel like so many people have heard, is if there's blood in the water, the sharks are going to stick around because there's blood in the water, you know?
Cameron Whiting
Totally, yep. I think it was, the shark made a mistake and realized it and probably swam away. And I think the conditions make a big impact, too. I think the morning of the incident, there was red tide, which is a red plankton that makes the water really murky and muddy. It was kind of choppy.
And so in my mind, the shark attack happened because the shark probably couldn't see, and it couldn't tell what it was biting. And it attacked thinking it was a seal, because there was a seal out there that morning.
Ira Glass
All that said, he was still scared. He says sharks are always in the back of his head as an ocean swimmer. And for whatever random reason, for a couple of months before this day, he'd been having nightmares about sharks coming at him, emerging from the deep. Now he might be heading towards what he calls a 1,500-pound pitbull, agitated and fighting.
But in that quick moment or two before he took action, he took note of a couple of other things. He and Kevin were the closest to the guy who got bit, who was another swimmer from the group. No lifeguards were near.
Cameron Whiting
And I think I just did the math in my head in that split second of, I think the thought of living for the rest of my life, knowing that I was in a position to help and not doing it, would have just eaten away at me way more than the thought of swimming into something that's dangerous.
Ira Glass
That's funny when you weigh it up like this. I feel like the math of it actually seems really, really clear. You're like, I'm a really good swimmer. I'm trained for this. Other people are further away. And I really don't think the shark's going to bite me. Like, the math is so straightforward.
Cameron Whiting
Yeah, in my mind, it didn't seem like a huge thing. I was just out there in the right place, in the right time. But again, Kevin's the one that really made that first move and inspired the courage in me to go.
Ira Glass
And had Kevin done this kind of training, too?
Cameron Whiting
He hadn't. And he jokes that the reason he instantly responded the way he did out of instinct was because he didn't have the training. [LAUGHS]
Kevin Barrett
I didn't think. I really didn't. I just reacted.
Ira Glass
This, of course, is Kevin Barrett, 51 years old the day he hurled his body through the water towards a shark attack-- married, two teenage sons. Pays the bills as a financial advisor, but also has a little startup trying to convert ocean waves and their motion into electricity.
He used to play rugby and do triathlons, but at some point switched to ocean swimming. And talking with him about why a person might swim towards a shark attack is pretty much the opposite day, upside down world, mirror universe, black-is-white version of talking with Cameron about it.
Kevin Barrett
It's almost, ignorance is bliss, right? I didn't have that knowledge set. And so for me, it was, my friend's in trouble. I just reacted and went to him. Right? I didn't have the same knowledge that Cameron had. So I just reacted.
Ira Glass
Well, it's funny. When he describes his thing, it's almost not heroic. He just did the math. You know what I mean? Like, whereas when you describe yours, it's way more heroic because you're just sort of throwing yourself at danger. Did you assume that the shark would probably swim away once it bit him that one time?
Kevin Barrett
Honestly, I didn't. I really didn't think too much about the shark. I was really just focused on Caleb.
Ira Glass
Caleb, the guy who got bit.
Kevin Barrett
I was like, I need to get my friend, you know? He's injured. And how bad are his injuries? And let's get him to shore.
Ira Glass
Hmm. How well do you know Caleb?
Kevin Barrett
I'd only met-- this was the third time I'd met him.
Ira Glass
The third time he'd met him. They'd chatted a little about rugby on the beach. Caleb also used to play. That is the extent of the friendship for which he risked his life. People, man.
Kevin and Cameron would both be very annoyed with me if I did not point out right now that other people were also critical to saving Caleb's life that day. There was the woman who stayed by him during the attack and yelled for help.
Then, when they got to Caleb, he was bleeding badly, like a lawn mower hit his torso, Cameron said. The shark was gone, and a surfer approached with a surfboard. They put Caleb on, get him to shore. Then there were medics, of course, and others who helped. Caleb is fine now.
Cameron and Kevin both said that since this story hit the news, lots of people have come up to them, saying they could never have done what the two of them did. They would not have swum toward a shark. Cameron says he tells them, you'd be surprised at what you can do. Kevin tells them, of course you would.
Kevin Barrett
People, I think, are innately good. And we will do the right thing when pressed, right? And I'm just like you. And hey, we do good.
Ira Glass
I don't know. I think you and I see people differently. I think that we are a mix of good and bad. And all the people who say, like, I wouldn't do that, I think that those people, many of them are telling the truth.
Kevin Barrett
And I guess that's where we differ. I'm not any different to anybody else. And this is the reaction that I had. Trust that you would have the similar reaction. That's a cool thing to think about.
Ira Glass
That is a cool thing to think about. And we don't agree on this. I do think that there are some people who are like you and some people who aren't. But because this is your interview and not mine, you will get the last word.
Kevin Barrett
[LAUGHS] OK. Good.
Ira Glass
Today on our show, people who decide to put themselves in danger and swim towards sharks. Sometimes, they're doing it out of idealism, for the greater good of everybody, because they're good people-- if such a thing exists.
Sometimes, it's purely personal and the only way they know to fix some problem in their own life. Sometimes, the people around them do not understand why they're doing it at all. True stories of human peril and the people who seek it out. From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Stay with us.
Act One: If I Only Had My Brain
Ira Glass
It's This American Life. Act One, "If I Only Had My Brain." When Sarah was 15, she landed the lead role with a professional theater company playing Alice, the lead role in Alice Through the Looking Glass. And during the course of the production, she became petrified of going on stage, stage fright at an almost chemical level.
Every day, she says, the very thought of doing the show again drenched her in sweat. Her heart pounded so hard, she thought it might explode. She was afraid. And she was afraid people would discover she was afraid, which made it worse.
And long story, but she lied her way out of the gig so she didn't have to do it anymore, which ended the play's run early, leaving her adult cast members who needed work out of work. She felt really bad about that, didn't own up to it for years after.
The funny thing is, Sarah, she'd acted a bunch before this-- and after it, in movies, on TV, where there's no audience with you in the room. You may have heard of her, Sarah Polley. These days, she works behind the camera as a director and a screenwriter. But being on stage, after that one production, it was a shark she did not swim toward, one of several.
Sarah Polley
Yes, I've never been somebody to push myself. In general, if something makes me anxious, I don't do it. And certainly, throughout my acting career, there are a lot of things I just backed right away from the second they started to make me anxious at all. Like, I just didn't want the trouble. It's time to move in a different direction.
Ira Glass
And then, a couple of decades later, well into adulthood, something happened that just changed all of that, made her way less avoidant, fearful. And it wasn't a thing that you would expect. She told the story to one of our producers, Sean Cole.
Sean Cole
So it's October 2015. Sarah had just finished swimming, actually, at the local rec center and was getting ready to walk home, but her hair's wet and it's chilly outside. It's Toronto, where she lives. It gets cold. And she can't find her blow-dryer. Goes to the front desk, says, has anybody seen it? The woman says, meh, go check the lost and found bin.
So she goes over to the corner of the lobby and crouches down to rummage around in the bin, above which, hanging on the wall, is this big industrial fire extinguisher.
Sarah Polley
I was overheating, and I stood up quickly to toss my winter coat off in a kind of tantrum. And I think what must have happened is my shoulder must have dislodged the fire extinguisher, and it crashed down on the left side of my head. So my memory after that is foggy.
But what I do remember is, I felt like all my teeth were going to fall out of my head. I had a lot of thoughts about dentistry and how I wished I knew more about dentistry, because that seemed like a priority at that moment. And I kind of put together very slowly this terrible pain in my teeth and on the left side of my jaw and head with the fact there was this huge clang around the same time, and I could see the fire extinguisher rolling. And I realized I should probably let someone know.
And so I started saying, in a very monotone voice, to no one in particular, a fire extinguisher just fell on my head. A fire extinguisher just fell on my head. And it was literally like listening to a robot. There was no affect in the voice that I heard coming out of me.
Sean Cole
The woman behind the counter ran to get help, but instead of waiting around, Sarah just set off on her walk home, which wasn't easy. Somehow, her body kept veering to the right, onto people's lawns.
Sarah Polley
I felt like I was underwater. I felt like everything was way too loud. But I also felt like, I have two tiny kids. I'm in the middle of a job. Nothing can have happened to me right now because that's just not possible. I just can't make room for that at the moment, so.
Sean Cole
You might have guessed by now that she'd suffered a concussion, in which case you know more about Sarah's brain than she did in those first few hours after the accident. For her, it was one of those moments where you're not sure yet how serious or benign an injury might turn out to be. And if you just act casual, maybe it'll get better on its own.
But in the kitchen that night, making dinner, both her kids bouncing around, she started to experience her brain like a new appliance she wasn't used to yet and was kind of in awe of.
Sarah Polley
Everything for me became scrambled. So I remember having the thought, how am I supposed to open the oven and turn it on if they're making so much noise?
Sean Cole
Wow.
Sarah Polley
And I remember going, well, that's an odd thought, but I couldn't quite piece together why it was an odd thought. And I think the moment I really had to admit something was wrong was-- even though something was obviously wrong-- was I snapped at my three-year-old in a way that I just had never snapped before.
And I remember holding these little shoulders and these eyes looking up at me, shocked. And then I became shocked because I was like, what am I doing? I mean, I wasn't rough, but it was way beyond how I had ever been.
And I remember just backing up and removing myself and going and sitting in a dark room and going, something's happened. I feel like I can cut through the air with my hand like it's butter, like it's a substance. And I remember saying to my husband, David, did reality always feel like this?
Sean Cole
You know when they say the answer is located within the question? This was one of those times.
Sarah called her sister, who's a doctor, and who said, yeah, it's a concussion. All the classic symptoms-- oversensitivity to noise and light, confusion, wooziness. She told Sarah to just take it easy. Probably, she'd be back to normal in no time. But that's not what happened. Sarah had all of those symptoms, plus fatigue, occasional nausea, and terrible migraines on and off for the next 3 and 1/2 years.
Some days, she'd just lay in a dark room for hours because the headaches were too much. The light sensitivity also meant limiting her screen time, so she could barely work. She was actually in the middle of adapting the novel Little Women into a screenplay when she got hit on the head, that gig that ultimately went to Greta Gerwig instead. Also very challenging-- just hanging out with friends and family.
Sarah Polley
Like in a conversation at dinner, where there's things going on, I haven't been able to follow what people are saying. And I was really good at faking it, but half the time, I didn't know what the hell was going on. And it was scary and embarrassing.
Sean Cole
But the biggest heartbreak was not being able to care for her kids that much, especially in the first year. Couldn't take them to school, couldn't go to their events. She just became less and less involved with their lives. And this is the story of how she made her way out of that hole, taking a path that was totally unexpected.
At first, she was just marching herself around to doctor after doctor. She actually published an essay in a book of essays about all of this. This part's a good summation of the different treatments she tried, so I asked her to read it.
Sarah Polley
"I go to a neurofeedback specialist who tells me, after I spent an exhausting day watching balls bounce around on a computer screen, that I am in the one percentile for attention span for my age and gender. This will haunt me for years. A nutritionist who tells me to stop eating gluten and dairy and a chiropractor who apparently helped cure hockey player Sidney Crosby."
Sean Cole
Sidney Crosby is a hockey legend, just to say. In 2011, he was diagnosed with a concussion that famously benched him for about a year.
Sarah Polley
"I will later realize that almost everyone out there specializing in concussions has a rumor swirling around them that they cured Sidney Crosby. After a while, whenever anyone starts to rave about a concussion miracle worker they know, I say, let me guess-- he treated Sidney Crosby. The answer is invariably yes."
Sean Cole
Out of the tangle of advice, much of it conflicting, stuck this one common thread, that Sarah should do as much as she felt like she could handle, but when she reached the point where she couldn't tolerate the stimulation or the sunlight or traffic sounds or whatever it was, then back off. Don't try to push yourself past the point where your body is telling you to quit, and make sure to get lots of rest.
It's not exactly rare, this condition. It's been referred to as post-concussion syndrome. Maybe 15% or 20% of people with concussions develop some form of it. In fact, Sarah's friend Meredith happened to be dealing with it at the same time. They'd compare notes. Meredith always wore wraparound shades and wide-brimmed hats when she went outside.
And somewhere around year 3, Sarah got almost used to her limitations. She kept detailed notes about her symptoms-- when they showed up, how severe they were. And in what she calls an irrational fit of optimism, she and David decide to have a third kid, which would have been a huge load for anyone. But for Sarah, it was insurmountable. She felt just as bad as she did on day one and starts to give up on ever being recognizably herself again.
And then, one day, 3 and 1/2 years in, Sarah sees Meredith, her concussion buddy, on the street, except now, out of nowhere, Meredith's fine. No wraparound shades, no wide-brimmed hat. She basically says she was cured by this doctor in Pittsburgh, Dr. Michael Collins.
And the more Sarah learned about him, the more snake oily the whole thing sounded. There's just so much debate around the science of concussions, and the cure seems so elusive. And now, here is this guy who was completely confident that he could fix what was wrong, that there was a method to it. Plus, the way his patients felt about him seemed cultish and weird.
And besides being skeptical, Sarah, who, remember, is Canadian and explicitly asked me to include this, she didn't want to buy into the notion that health care in the US is superior to what you could get in Canada-- and literally buy in. She's like, nobody should have to pay for health care. It made her feel gross.
But all of that said, she had tried everything else. Maybe a little snake oil was what she needed. So she booked an appointment and brought her friend, Kate, down with her to Pittsburgh to sit with her and take notes on what the doctor said so she'd remember. The trip itself was hugely taxing for her. And when the time came to see Dr. Collins, he was not what she expected.
Sarah Polley
He kind of burst into the room in whatever a Canadian stereotypical image of an American is. It was like America came into the room. He was really direct, didn't hold back. He was loud. He didn't have a lot of time for niceties. I literally felt like Kate and I were like, our hair is being blown back by the sheer energy of this man.
Sean Cole
He immediately points at Kate, who's quietly taking notes in the corner.
Sarah Polley
That's not going to help. I read all your husband's notes. He's taking all these notes about your symptoms. That's not going to help. And he yelled at Kate, and he was like, put that pen down. You're not helping. And Kate dropped her pen and was like--
Sean Cole
And he's talking at that volume of voice? Like--
Sarah Polley
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's a really intense guy. And I mean, I was used to a lot of "listen to your body," "be gentle with yourself." And he was like, stop tracking your symptoms. You're not helping yourself by tracking your symptoms, which I was extremely good at.
And I mean, he's basically like-- I don't know. I don't play sports. It's what I imagine an American football coach is like. The first thing he had said was, we're going to have to pin our ears and go after this thing, which is like my kid's favorite expression. We're going to have to pin our ears and go after this thing.
Sean Cole
He basically told Sarah that she was thinking about her concussion as something she needed to make room for in her life, which was exactly wrong.
Sarah Polley
He said, if there's one thing I need you to remember from this meeting, if you don't remember anything else-- and there was a possibility I wouldn't, because Kate wasn't allowed to take notes because he yelled at her. If there's only one thing you remember from this meeting today, it's this-- run towards the danger.
Sean Cole
Run towards the danger.
Sarah Polley
Anything that's traditionally triggered your symptoms, you're doing more of. So now, if you're watching TV with someone, you have to ask if it's loud enough for them, because they might be keeping it lower for your concussion. You have to ask if the room is bright enough for other people because everyone's probably gotten to a habit of lower light for you and your concussion.
You have to basically just take off all the band-aids. And what I was not allowed to do was-- he was like, if I hear that you're having a nap, ever, I will yell at you. If you have a nap in the day, I will yell at you.
[LAUGHTER]
And he meant it. And I was like, holy shit. What if I'm trying to make breakfast for my kids, breastfeed my baby, I'm alone at home, I'm trying to get them all off to school? Just thinking about that gives me a migraine. I mean, what if I get a migraine if I'm overextending myself in that way, and then I can't function for the rest of the day? And he just looked at me and yelled, attack, attack, attack!
Sean Cole
[LAUGHS]
Sarah Polley
It was so arresting.
Sean Cole
Remember, this was, like, the opposite of what every other doctor had told her. Everybody else was like, don't push past the point of your own tolerance. And Dr. Collins was like, push past the point of your own tolerance. Keep going. Sarah asked him how long it would take for her to get better, and he said, hmm, a pretty straightforward case, maybe four to six weeks, which is when she became firmly convinced that he was a charlatan.
But he's not a charlatan. For all of the ear pinning and attack, attack, attack stuff, Dr. Michael Collins is a world-renowned leading expert in concussions. He's a clinical neuropsychologist, not an MD. But he helped develop a special diagnostic tool to test the severity and type of concussion. Yes, there are different types of concussions-- six of them, in fact.
And he's worked on hundreds of research articles and important studies in the field. And the way his team approaches treatment is becoming more and more accepted, both here and in other countries. Oh, and also--
Michael Collins
We're making progress in Sid's case, and I anticipate Sid returning to hockey and playing well in the future.
Sean Cole
--he actually did treat the hockey player Sidney Crosby. This is from a press conference where Sidney is literally sitting two chairs away from him.
Michael Collins
Yesterday, actually, I assessed Sid. And I can tell you that his data is the best we've seen. It is approaching--
Sean Cole
I got in touch with Michael Collins, or Mickey to people who know him. First and foremost, I asked him what was going on with all the yelling.
Michael Collins
I was having a tough day that day.
Sean Cole
He said he'd been running hours behind schedule on some really complicated cases before seeing Sarah. But beyond that, he says he felt like he needed to get through to her, literally loud and clear, that noise and stimulation were not the enemy.
Put very simply, the bash on Sarah's head injured this part of her brain that allows you to interpret motion and busy environments. So the system gets overloaded and can't manage everything that's flying at it. And the injury also caused anxiety.
But here's the weird part-- whenever Sarah felt anxiety about, like, going to a social event, that anxiety alone could also trigger her physical concussion symptoms-- the brain fog, wooziness, and confusion. It's a two-way conversation. And so you run toward the danger to interrupt that conversation. You just ignore your anxiety about the symptoms, and so the anxiety and the symptoms both start to fade.
Michael Collins
She had the type of concussion where it's not rest that gets someone better. It's about rehabituation and retraining. And so to make sure she was aware of that-- because every instinct in your body when you're going through this is to back off things. And so yeah, a part of it was I was having a busy day, but a part of it was she needed to hear it. And she needed to understand that there's only one way out, and that's through it. We actually wanted her to have symptoms. We wanted her to feel it.
Sean Cole
And just to say, he's not yell-y with every patient. And some patients have completely different kinds of concussions. Please consult a physician before treating your own concussion by going to a Five Finger Death Punch concert.
But with Sarah, he told her, we're going to put you on an intensive retraining program-- exercise, including very specific exercises to get that motion interpretation system-- it's called the vestibular system-- working again, and all the classic exposure therapy you just heard about. Dr. Collins warned her that this would be very uncomfortable at first. He was not lying.
Sarah Polley
I was in agony. Everything hurt. I had worse brain fog at times. It was exhausting. It made me nauseous. It gave me headaches.
Sean Cole
Take, for example, a simple visit to the grocery store. For years, her husband had been doing most of the shopping, but now, shopping was prescribed.
Sarah Polley
Just the number of things that were happening, like the bright lights, the music, needing to make decisions about what to pull off the shelf, looking at a list, which, again, when you can see how much work each of those steps takes for your brain to process and execute, it is an explosion of exhaustion and pain. And certainly, I remember being at a kids' concert, like a kids' rock concert in the gym.
Sean Cole
A thing that I think that even people without hypersensitivity to loud noises do not necessarily enjoy.
Sarah Polley
And I just wanted to die. And it was like, it must have been such a sight because you position your face in a certain kind of way at a kids' performance, which I was incapable of doing.
Yeah, my brain was exploding a lot in those first few weeks. And then there was this moment where we'd been invited out.
Sean Cole
This is maybe two or three weeks into the treatment.
Sarah Polley
David had this new colleague and his partner, and we went to a restaurant, and I was bringing my breastfeeding baby into a restaurant while having to socialize with new people, with noise and light. And I said yes because I had to, because it was part of my program to say yes to these things. And I realized halfway through the conversation that I had been following the whole conversation--
Sean Cole
Hmm!
Sarah Polley
--and that I wasn't lost, and my head didn't hurt, and I wasn't confused. And I expressed that to my husband on the walk home. And as I did, I started sobbing uncontrollably, because I suddenly realized, this is what it used to feel like to be in my brain.
And I didn't even know how far off I was of being myself or being fully functioning. And so it was both an incredible moment of knowing, oh, I am going to get better, actually, and also real grief for the last 3 and 1/2 years, and also just my lack of even having known what I'd lost.
Sean Cole
And by the end of six weeks, just like the doctor had said, she was totally cured.
Sarah Polley
It honestly just felt like a veil lifting off the world, like I'd been behind this screen that I didn't know I was behind. And my vision had adjusted to everything being a bit blurry. And then suddenly, everything was clear and in technicolor and beautiful.
Sean Cole
It's been five years since Sarah recovered. And not only is she symptom-free, she actually gained something that I never would have expected, and is the entire reason I wanted you to hear this story. That whole run towards the danger thing, it's pervaded the rest of her life. Instead of being all squirrely and avoidant when a big challenge comes along, now she's like, OK, bring it on.
Sarah Polley
I do all kinds of things now that I am terrified of and that I would never do. Like, I now, if I'm asked to be on stage, it's very likely I will say yes because it's so hard for me. And I know the more I do it and the more I work with it, the better it's going to get. So I don't really avoid anything that bugs me anymore.
I am so very honored to be asked to speak here today--
Sean Cole
This is Sarah addressing graduates at the University of Toronto just a couple of months ago. She told the crowd she was terrified of being on stage, even as she was onstage speaking to them.
Sarah Polley
There are many things to be legitimately afraid of. Don't worry, I won't list them.
Sean Cole
She's also taken on huge projects that would have felt insurmountable to her before the concussion happened, like the movie Women Talking, which won her an Oscar last year for her screenplay. And that book I mentioned before, it's called Run Towards the Danger. And it's full of deeply personal, sometimes really upsetting, stories from her life that she'd always been scared to tell.
Sean Cole
And is it literally, if you were going into some sort of uncomfortable situation, that you're thinking of the words "run towards the danger" now?
Sarah Polley
I do think it sometimes, but I don't have to because it gets lobbed at me more than I say it to myself. If you want to make your life a living hell, name a book Run Towards The Danger, because then any time you express reservation about anything, the person in the other corner will be like, I don't want to say it, but I don't know if you remember the title of your book.
[LAUGHTER]
It's so annoying.
Sean Cole
Sarah says she's glad now for the concussion. Glad for a concussion. Her whole life, she says, she kept mixing up taking care of herself with avoiding anything potentially difficult or uncomfortable. Those two things can look very much the same, but they're not. And you can miss out on a lot in life when you confuse them. So she's happy to know the difference. And all it took was a fire extinguisher falling on her head.
Ira Glass
Sean Cole is one of the producers of our show.
Coming up, what do you do when your kid doesn't just fly the coop, but decides twice a week to head straight into danger? What parenting advice exists for that? That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
Act Two: Am I Doing It Alt-Right, You Guys?
Ira Glass
It's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's program, "Swim Towards the Shark," stories of people who ignore all the noise that is in all of our heads that tells us to run away from danger, and instead, they head straight towards it.
We've arrived at Act Two of our program. Act Two, "Am I Doing It Alt-Right, You Guys?" So this is about somebody who got into an incendiary situation, and then rather than pull herself out, decided, hmm, I'm just going to head further into that fire. Comedian Josh Johnson talked about what happened on stage recently. Here he is.
Josh Johnson
Did y'all see the white woman that got in trouble for saying the N-word? I know you're saying, which one? OK, fair enough.
[LAUGHTER]
OK. I say "the" because this was "the" for me. It's like, other people were saying it. People were saying it all the time. But this one was like-- this one felt especially crazy. So I followed the story because it is captivating.
OK, so basically-- OK, where do I even start? There's a thing called trad wife. Now, trad wife is short for traditional wife, right? Trad wife is, like, this content thing that they do on TikTok. It's spilled over to Instagram a little bit.
And it's basically women doing stuff around the house while telling women to be better women, right? It's just like, why don't you be a lady, while she makes a pie or something. I don't get it. It's not for me. I'm not who watches it. But basically, there was this young white woman that was over here cooking something. It didn't look done. And--
[LAUGHTER]
Maybe it was done. Maybe she's bad at it-- I don't know. But it did not look done. But then she's talking about her friends. And then she says, 'cause then some of my friends out here are just, like, out here dating these guys and broke-ass [BLEEP] right? And she says it. She says it without missing a beat. She says it like you're not going to hear it, right?
So then, of course, everyone who saw this, it started this frenzy online, right? And so there were all these people-- she did it on TikTok. There was all these people commenting, replying, what's wrong with you? What are you doing? Are you trolling? All stuff like that, right? And then she makes another video. And she's like, look, I made a video earlier that offended a community or something.
[LAUGHTER]
And I've really listened to the feedback. And I'm not going to lie-- I don't really give a care. Like, I don't know. So then they found her job, right, which is crazy, because you're a trad wife. Why are you working? Why are you--
[LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE]
You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Why are you-- you're supposed to be a traditional-- why are you working at all? You can't trad wife on the side. You can't--
[LAUGHTER]
There's no such thing as halfway crooks. You know what I mean? You got to be all in or all out, right? And so then they found her job. Then they got her fired from her job, right? So then everyone was talking about how she clearly got fired. Even though they don't say her name, they issued a press release, because why else would they do it? And they were like, yeah, certain individual's not working here anymore.
So then, so then, she starts trying to cozy up to Newsmax and One Nation News and just a lot of the alt-right on Twitter and everything. And she takes this spin of, I was canceled, right? But she also just doesn't quite have the juice. You know what I mean by that? She doesn't quite have the presence and the energy of a real racist is going to be a newscaster. You know what I mean?
She just doesn't have "it." Like when you're watching her, you're like, she's saying bad things, and they're annoying, but I'm not angry. She just doesn't have the oomph to get me there. You know what I mean? I've just never seen diet racism before, but that was it.
So then she makes more videos, trying to double down harder. And in these upcoming videos, she just gets way worse with it, gets even more bigoted with it. So she's tweeting the N-word all the time. She's been tweeting the N-word non-stop since she got fired, right? And now, she's making videos where she's saying the F-word, right? And so, she's just going after everybody, just trying to prove how terrible that she is, right?
And so then she starts trying to cozy up to a lot of these especially neo-Nazis as much as she can. And then, then, a turn takes place, an incredible turn that I could not have predicted, one of the most insane things that has maybe happened so far this century-- the neo-Nazis start rejecting her as a PSYOP. They--
[LAUGHTER]
Because they feel what I feel. They see the video, and they're like, mm, you don't mean it, though. It's not--
[LAUGHTER]
It's not, like, coming out of your stomach. You know what I mean? Like, it's not-- you're not even saying it with bass, you know? You know? And so then, they were like, no, no, don't trust her, OK? Don't listen to her. Don't follow her. She's working for the CIA. She's probably a Fed. They all turned on her. They started bullying her.
[LAUGHTER]
It was absolutely insane. It was one of those things where, then, she keeps trying to cozy up to them. She keeps trying to take pictures with them. She's going to events and stuff like that. And some of the ones that roll with her are rolling with her in real-time, you know? And they're making fun of how other people are making fun of her. But you can tell she's still not in yet, you know? She's not with them, hard.
And she just played it-- she played it poorly. That's what happened. She could have had a real shot. She could have. But she doesn't have enough of the real-- you can tell she's not really racist.
[LAUGHTER]
I know it's a weird thing to say about somebody who's been saying the N-word non-stop for a week, but you can just tell she doesn't have the fire in her. You know? That's not how you do it. You are making racist people uncomfortable. You are making--
[LAUGHTER]
That's not how you do it. If you really want to be somebody as a racist, if you really want to make waves as a bigot, you start out slow. You start with a bunch of slow and steady dog whistles over decades. I mean, you never say the word outright. You throw out a "thug" here every once in a while. You know what I mean?
[LAUGHTER]
Every once in a while, like on a holiday, you can get real crazy with it. You can do, like, an "animals" or something. It's like, get people going, you know? Plant your feet, but don't dig too deep.
[LAUGHTER]
And then after a while, you start to ingratiate yourself. They start to be like, hey, she's one of us. And then they bring in, and maybe they bring you in on a temporary basis. And they give you a little guest spot every now and again. And then after a couple of decades, you get a hosting gig, you know? Because be honest-- like, if a week from now, Megyn Kelly said the N-word, we'd be like, yep.
[LAUGHTER]
We expected that. She's been earning it over decades. The expectation lands right on the strip perfectly. And then, then, we also find out that she might be single. So you're not only not a trad wife, you're not a wife. What are you doing?
[LAUGHTER]
What are you doing? Where's your man right now? She really put herself in the position where she really needs a husband.
[LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE]
Ira Glass
Josh Johnson performing in Philadelphia. He's a correspondent for The Daily Show, currently on a nationwide stand-up tour. To learn when he is coming to your city, go to joshjohnsoncomedy.com.
We did reach out to the woman who he told that story about. Her name is Lilly Gaddis. Just to be perfectly accurate, she was never on Newsmax or One Nation News, but she did appear on similar outlets-- InfoWars, Candace Owens.
She wrote us back right away. She said, hey, thanks for reaching out. Yes, I've seen this bit. It's fairly accurate, except for the trad wife part. I never claimed at any time to be a trad wife. It's actually a funny bit. She signed it, "Cheers, Lilly."
Act Three: Mom Thinks He Doth Protest Too Much
Ira Glass
Act Three, "Mom Thinks He Doth Protest Too Much." So now a story where lots of people are running towards peril. Reporter Kimu Elolia grew up going to Kenya every year for a month or so. And so this June, he went back, like usual.
Kimu Elolia
So I go into a store and do what I always do. I go to buy a SIM card. And as I'm checking out, I start hearing all these noises coming from the street. And so I step out, and it's hundreds of protesters that are sprinting towards me. And they're all being chased by the police. And I realize I'm directly in the front lines of a protest. And so I had my recorder on me, and so I turned it on.
[EXPLOSION]
I'm seeing police on horseback chasing protesters, going around with wooden sticks and just beating people as they rode through, and then protesters retaliating and running back and chasing the police. And then they kind of regain their ground.
Ira Glass
Oh, so the line is moving forward and backward.
Kimu Elolia
Yeah, it's going back and forth. And police are shooting tear gas canisters. One of them hits a guy in the leg, and he picks it up and drop kicks it like a soccer ball back towards the police.
Ira Glass
And these protests began a couple of months ago over a proposed tax hike, right?
Kimu Elolia
Yeah, there were these really punitive tax hikes impacting a lot of Kenyan everyday items, like cooking oil, flour, tampons, even diapers.
Ira Glass
And this is the sort of thing, like, the government needed the money because there's IMF loans and stuff to pay off?
Kimu Elolia
Yeah, it was supposed to be the solution to pay back the IMF.
Ira Glass
But then it became something more than that.
Kimu Elolia
Yeah, it became this huge movement where people, especially young people, were just rejecting just the status quo of the way the Kenyan government's been operating. Politicians flaunting their Rolex watches, their Bentleys.
Ira Glass
This is on social media.
Kimu Elolia
On social media, while they're being asked to pay for way more for these regular everyday items. And young people make up-- 75% of the population is under 35.
Ira Glass
Oh, wow.
Kimu Elolia
Yeah, and the median age in the country is around 20 years old. And this young generation, they're crossing tribal lines. In the past, tribes, they typically act like de facto political parties. And so one tribe will gain control of the country, and another tribe will be protesting.
Ira Glass
Oh, so now people from different tribes are protesting together in this way that's new.
Kimu Elolia
Yeah, these young people are united. And they really just see themselves as Kenyans.
Ira Glass
So I know that you got interested in the front line protesters who go to the part of the line where it's the most dangerous. And you started talking to one of them and his mom. Who is he?
Kimu Elolia
So he goes by Ospina. Ospina is 27. He's a law student. My sister introduced me to him, and she was telling me about this guy who-- he's in Kibera, which is a neighborhood in Nairobi. It's one of the largest slums in all of Africa. You really can't go anywhere in the neighborhood without seeing the places he's touched and the projects he's done.
Ira Glass
And in these protests, he's going to the front lines, where most of the violence and arrests are happening.
Kimu Elolia
Yeah, and because it's so dangerous, before he goes out each time, he says a prayer to himself.
Ospina
So, God, as I'm leaving this place, protect me, guide me, and be with me. Bless our country. Be with my family. Bless my mother. I know she's praying with me. Amen.
Ira Glass
He's saying at the end there, bless my mother. What does his mom think of this, the fact that he goes to the front lines?
Kimu Elolia
His mom does not approve. She does not want him going at all.
Ira Glass
And you put together this story about what this has done to the relationship and how they're managing with each other. Let's hear that now. In your story, the name that she asked us to call her is Anna.
Kimu Elolia
In the beginning, when he started going to the protests, Ospina dealt with his mom by lying to her. He'd come back home from the front lines, shower the tear gas off, and drop by her house, pretending he'd been having a normal day. But he wasn't so good at keeping it a secret. Like, one day, at a protest, a TV crew put a mic in front of him and started interviewing him. Anna found out.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
My friend called me and told me that they have seen Ospina on TV. So I was calling Ospina.
Ospina
I was just at the middle of finishing my interview. Then the phone was ringing. Then I just see, ah, it's Mom. This woman is going to make it difficult for me.
Interpreter
And I was like, where are you? And he was just not telling me. Then I was like, you were on TV for the protest. And he just kept laughing.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Ospina
My mom is funny when she's angry. She just starts yelling. [CHUCKLES] I'm like, I'm just home. Then she's like, you're lying. I've seen you on TV. Then I'm like, are you sure? Which station did you see me? I'm just home. Then she's like, I need you to come back right now.
Interpreter
He was laughing, telling his friends, like, oh, my mom is panicked.
[CHUCKLING]
Kimu Elolia
Ospina and Anna have always been close. They talk all the time and tease each other. He lives a 10-minute walk away. Sometimes he'll bring his friends to the food stand she runs. It's called Mama Chapati. She's there all day in a blue or white dress. Ospina looks just like her. And over the years, he's done other stuff she didn't approve of at first and later came around to, like soccer, or football, whatever you want to call it.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
He was keen on football. He used to play a lot. And I didn't see any value in playing football. In fact, it was such a nuisance because he'd come back home so dirty.
Kimu Elolia
Then, when Ospina was 14, Anna and her husband couldn't afford to send him to school for a year. Anna says he took it well. She said he understood and was very grown-up about it. And then he took on odd jobs and played a lot of soccer. And she saw how happy it made him. He played so well that two soccer scouts got him a scholarship that put him back in the classroom.
Anna was grateful. She grew up in a village and only got through the fifth grade and wanted more for her kids. A similar thing happened when Ospina decided to clean up their neighborhood. Kibera at the time had no roads, no streetlights, no trash collection. At first, when he told Anna he was going to pick up the trash himself, she thought he was joking. But within a few years, he was coordinating trash pickups for hundreds of houses. And she came around.
Ospina has so many projects going in Kibera these days-- organizing events and mentorship for kids, a greenhouse that grows and sells food, a water sanitation program-- lots of neighbors are pinning their hopes on him.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
A lot of parents support him because he's helping their kids. What I tried to tell him-- and he never listens, and I never get across to him-- is how important he is to me. He is very, very important to me. And he has such a wonderful dream for our future, for the future of Kenya. So he told me about these dreams. He gave me these hopes.
Kimu Elolia
Up until now, Anna has liked Ospina's optimism. She liked the way he's pushed her. But she's lived through years of de facto one-party rule, seen protests get ruthlessly put down and activists get killed. And this time around, she doesn't understand where Ospina is coming from.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
Most of the time, he listens. But recently, he's just been deciding that I'm just someone who's afraid all the time, and I'm speaking out of fear. So he doesn't listen.
Kimu Elolia
Why do you feel like he thinks you're just speaking out of fear?
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I think it's just an assumption, because I'm a woman, and I'm a mother. And men just assume that we are, we are always talking from fear.
Kimu Elolia
Do you think that, in this case, it is out of fear?
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
[LAUGHTER]
Interpreter
Yes, he's right. Yeah, he's right. It's right. It was fear.
Kimu Elolia
For the first few weeks of the protest, Anna and Ospina went back and forth, her telling him not to go, him lying to her, until things reached a boiling point on June 25.
Man
Members of parliament have today passed the controversial finance bill with key amendments. The bill will now be forwarded to President William Ruto for assent.
Kimu Elolia
Instead of killing the tax hikes like the protesters demanded, Kenya's parliament just made a few changes and pushed the bill through. And in response, Ospina and thousands of other protesters rushed to parliament, stormed the building, and some set part of it on fire on live TV. I remember it felt like the whole country was watching. It got violent.
[GUNFIRE]
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
A young kid from the neighborhood, came, and he was buying food from me. But he was out of breath, and he told me, Mom, they killed someone in front of me. And I saw his brains, and I had to crawl out. And I'm so, so lucky to have made it out. And you could see in his eyes that he has seen things that he shouldn't see, shouldn't have seen.
Kimu Elolia
That must have made you really scared.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I was so scared because Ospina had said that they were going to go to parliament. And I tried calling his phone. I tried calling his phone. And his phone-- I couldn't reach him. I kept getting this voice message.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I was restless. My stomach hurt. I had no energy. And I felt like something very bad is about to happen to someone that I depend on, someone who has my hopes, was the carrier of my hopes.
Kimu Elolia
Over a dozen people were killed. Anna called Ospina over and over, started asking people who passed her chapati stand if they'd seen him, called his siblings, called his friends, praying he'd pick up the phone. Then her daughter told her about something she saw on TV.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
Lillian, my daughter, came and told me that she'd seen someone who was dressed exactly like Ospina who had been shot. And he was wearing the exact same shoes that Ospina was wearing. So I was so anxious. I couldn't-- I hadn't-- like, everything left me. All my life left me.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
Because my hopes and dreams and future lies with those children.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
So if something happens to them, how can I continue going on? And I kept wondering how my life will be if that's actually my child.
Kimu Elolia
Finally, at around 9:00 PM, one of Ospina's friends called. Ospina was OK. Anna rushed out to meet him, and she found him in the middle of the street.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
The first thing I told him, like, I thank god that you are still alive, but please don't ever go back to the protests. And he said, I have to go. And I told him, listen to me, I'm your parent. If something happens to you, Kenya is not losing anything. I am the person that's losing. I'm losing you.
But he was adamant that he has to go back. He was, like, high with energy, explaining everything that happened with so much gusto. And meanwhile, I'm shaking. And I'm like, this child doesn't know what he put me through.
Ospina
Yeah, I mean, it just made me feel like she just doesn't understand why I'm doing whatever I'm doing. I mean, my mom is not comfortable with me being an activist because she's like, just relax. Have a family, you know? So, I mean, that is why sometimes we don't get along. And I find it so difficult sometimes to keep on repeating it.
Kimu Elolia
Ospina felt like, I'm responsible, and I do everything I can to get home safely. He wished his mom could see that. He went back to his place and turned off his phone, shutting everyone out.
Two days later, Ospina stopped by Anna's chapati stand with some of his friends and told her they were headed to another demonstration. In front of everyone on the street, including his friends, Anna dropped to her knees.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I knew that I had to do something that will make them think, what has made Mom go down on her knees? Maybe this is something we should rethink.
Kimu Elolia
Mm. That's such a vulnerable thing to do. Some people would feel humiliated.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I didn't care about shame. In fact, people were laughing. Spectators were laughing.
Kimu Elolia
Really?
Interpreter
Yeah.
Kimu Elolia
They were laughing?
Interpreter
They were laughing, pointing at me, telling each other, look, Mama Chapati is so afraid. His kids are going to go and protest.
Kimu Elolia
What did you see in his face at that moment?
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
So in his face, I saw denial. It's like he did not want to hear me say what I wanted to say.
Kimu Elolia
Mm, so--
Interpreter
Yeah.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Ospina
I mean, it was so insane. I just had to leave.
Kimu Elolia
Oh, you walked out?
Ospina
Yeah, I just walked out.
Kimu Elolia
Why?
Ospina
I've never seen such a thing. And from my understanding, it's not allowed to be happening. So I was like, this is so weird. So I cannot just stay there because I don't know the best thing to do. I can't comfort her. I can't explain anything, you know.
Kimu Elolia
Ospina walked away, went to the protests. But that night, the image of his mom kneeling, begging, it weighed on his mind.
Ospina
That was massive because, I mean, I felt like she'd gone too low. I actually found it so difficult to sleep. I had a lot of anxiety. Then I was like, I need to take some few break, reflect, and make a good choice.
Kimu Elolia
The next day, Ospina went to visit his mom.
Ospina
First of all, I started by apologizing for not listening, putting her in that situation and all the emotion to make me feel like I'm listening to her.
Kimu Elolia
Did you promise her anything in that moment?
Ospina
Yes. First, I promised to just to tell her the truth, that anytime I'll be going for the protest, I'll be letting her know. Then anytime I felt like it was so dangerous, I will not be going. If it's bad, I will just be there for a few moments, and I'll try to be very responsible.
Kimu Elolia
Did she feel like that was good enough for her?
Ospina
No, not really.
Kimu Elolia
Do you know what else-- what else did she want to hear?
Ospina
She just wanted to hear [LAUGHS] I will not go. I will never go again.
Kimu Elolia
Even though Anna didn't get what she wanted-- Ospina would continue to go to the protests-- she was satisfied.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
Yeah, so I saw that, now, he's listening. And yeah.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I was so happy. I had to be happy.
Kimu Elolia
Yeah. Did you celebrate?
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
A lot.
Kimu Elolia
That night, she cooked a special meal for Ospina and her entire family.
In the weeks after the parliament protests, the president actually made some pretty big concessions, but not enough for the protesters, who still want him out. They're still on the streets, and it's gotten more intense.
Amnesty International says that at least 49 people have been abducted by the government. Protesters have been disappeared, with a couple showing up dead. At first, the government denied any involvement, but now, President Ruto is at least talking about possible investigations.
Ospina skipped a couple of protests because they seemed too dangerous, like a planned march to the Nairobi airport. But he is having a hard time keeping all of his promises to Anna.
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
So there are times when he disappears for a whole day. And then when he comes back, I'm like, I know you went to the protest. And sometimes, he'll admit and be like, OK, fine. I went, but I wasn't in the front lines. I was at the very back.
Kimu Elolia
Do you believe that he was at the back?
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I don't believe it at all, not for a second.
Kimu Elolia
How does it make you feel that he lies to you about going to the protest?
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I'm so annoyed by that, by the lies. And I'm so afraid for him.
Kimu Elolia
Mm. He told us that he lies to you because he doesn't want to burden you. How does that make you feel?
Anna
[SPEAKING SWAHILI]
Interpreter
I just keep wondering why he wants to die so early, and he has so much to do. Why?
Kimu Elolia
So here they both are. He's not going to change, and she's not going to feel better about it. So he keeps heading off into danger, and she keeps hoping for the best. And the protests just continue.
Ira Glass
Kimu Elolia. This story was produced by Emmanuel Dzotsi with additional reporting by Henry Larson. Vincho Nchogu translated what Anna was saying. Additional translation by Happiness Bulugu.
["THE SHARK FIGHTER!" BY THE AQUABATS!]
Credits
Ira Glass
Well, our program was produced today by Sean Cole. The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Seth Lind, Tobin Low, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Ike Sriskandarajah, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu. Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman. Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
Special thanks today to Virginia Smith, Elisabeth Calamari, Beth Mausteller, Sammie Kosslow, Nathan Zasler, John Leddy, Irungu Houghton and Amnesty International Kenya, Ernest Cornel at the Kenya Human Rights Coalition, Joshua Changwony, Theo Among, and Amanda Sperber.
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free on your summer road trips or wherever. Again, thisamericanlife.org. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia. He and I have been debating what costumes we're going to wear to this year's Star Trek convention. He always wants us to be Vulcans, like Mr. Spock.
Sarah Polley
We're going to have to pin our ears and go after this thing.
Ira Glass
I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
["THE SHARK FIGHTER!" BY THE AQUABATS!]