854: Ten Things I Don't Want To Hate About You

Announcer

A quick warning, there are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org.

Ira Glass

I think we all have people in our lives who we love, but there's no talking to them. They have their way of seeing things or doing things, and it's hard to take. And no matter how you try to talk it out, it goes nowhere. It doesn't get solved, even if they also want things to change.

We're devoting our entire show today to a story like that from Zach Mack, who's a reporter. And the story is about him and his dad and how they both wanted to mend a rift that had grown between them that had lasted for years, but they couldn't figure out how until Zach's dad offered a very surprising way out.

That's going to be our whole show today-- his dad's unusual solution and how it played out. That's all I'm going to say for now. From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. And with that, I turn things over to Zach.

Zach Mack

This all started about a year ago. My father called and left me this message.

Zach Mack

My dad's talking about something called an ElectroMagnetic Pulse, EMP for short, which I only know about because it's what George Clooney uses in the movie Ocean's Eleven to pull off the casino heist.

Zach Mack

I can't remember a single other time Dad left me a message expressing a safety concern, but he was really convinced this was going to happen. At one point, he even did a little math for how much water I would need to survive.

Zach Mack

OK, so just a little background-- I wouldn't describe my father as a paranoid person. I wouldn't even call him an anxious person. He's actually an optimist and usually prefers to keep things light, so a lot of dad jokes.

What else? He's held down the same job forever. He has friends-- not close ones, but there's dudes he goes skiing and sailing with. When I was growing up, Dad was kind of in his own world. Mom was always the more involved parent, the one who knew all my friends and whatever was going on with me.

Dad and I have never been particularly close. Typically, when I hear from him on the phone, it's during an Ohio State football game. We both love the Buckeyes, so during a game, he'll call me, like, five or six times, but not much beyond games, though. Ohio State football is the one thing we can agree on.

The thing we can't seem to agree on is reality. Like so many people, Dad's gotten swept up in conspiracies. Lately, he's been talking about chemtrails, that the government can control the weather, that January 6 was staged by what he calls the "deep state."

As he's gotten more extreme in the last few years, I've seen my mom and sister retract and shut down around him. I'm typically the one who challenges Dad on this stuff. Because I'm a reporter, I can't resist taking the bait.

Zach Mack

Of course, it never goes anywhere, until a year ago. After a family blowout over the holidays that was so bad, my sister and I left early, I decided to confront my father. I could see how his beliefs were starting to strain the family, and I worried that pretty soon, there may be no coming back for him. I told him I thought he was being radicalized online and pleaded with him to hear me.

As always, he didn't agree. But what he did next surprised me. Dad texted me a photo of a sheet of paper where, in his barely legible cursive, he had written out a list of 10 predictions, 10 things that he was positive would all take place sometime in 2024, assuring me that when all of these things happened, I would see once and for all that he was right. At the bottom of the page was a challenge to a bet for $10,000.

And let me just say, Dad and I are not big gamblers, nor are we rich. 10k is easily more money than either of us has ever wagered. Looking over the list, I was a combination of surprised, horrified, and also, it was a little hard to take seriously. I immediately called him up to discuss the terms of the bet.

Zach Mack

Keep in mind, this call took place back in January 2024.

Zach Mack

It went on like this, all political. Dad's other predictions were that Nancy Pelosi would also be convicted of treason. Same for Bill and Hillary Clinton, who would go down for murder as well. That Trump would be reinstated without an election and cleared of all charges. That Biden would be removed from office. Same for both the governor and mayor of New York. And as a New York City resident, I didn't hate that last one.

Zach Mack

Eventually, we landed on his final prediction for 2024, his boldest one.

Zach Mack

For the record, I was never actually excited about the possibility of this happening.

Zach Mack

And so our strange bet was on. I saw Dad's challenge as an opening. Instead of just arguing until the end of time, we were actually going to settle this. And now we had a deadline-- New Year's 2025. The moment I saw his proposal, I knew I had him beat.

And for the very first time, he'd have to admit he was wrong. All I had to do was wait 12 months, and once he decisively lost, I figured he'd be more open to my version of the truth, and maybe I could pull him back to reality a bit. And the timing for the bet couldn't be better because his beliefs were starting to tear our family apart.

Ira Glass

Coming up, Zach calls his mom, who has some news of her own. Stay with us.

Ira Glass

This American Life. Zach Mack picks up his story about his year-long bet with his dad.

Zach Mack

Not long after making the bet, I called my mom. My parents have been married for 40 years. They met in their 20s in Chicago, fell in love, and moved to California, where they eventually had my sister and I. We grew up in the San Francisco Bay area, a pretty liberal place, which worked for my mom because she's a pretty liberal Jewish woman.

Dad has always been the odd man out, the lone Christian conservative, though growing up he was much quieter about his beliefs. And when my parents met, neither of them were religious. But Dad got back into it when I was young. Now he's very into it. That's been difficult for my parents for decades. But now, with the conspiracy stuff emerging, it's been really hard on my mom.

Zach Mack

Because Dad's worried the banks are going to collapse, he wants to move big chunks of their money into things like platinum and silver.

Zach Mack

Mom was initially irritated by the bet because Dad didn't run it by her first, which happens a lot, but the idea of a deadline, that was starting to make sense to her.

Zach Mack

Later, I called my sister Kira about the bet. Unfortunately, she's been having her own conflict with Dad, also about his beliefs. Two years ago, Kira came out to him. My mom and I had known for years, but Kira was always afraid to tell Dad because she thought he'd disapprove. It didn't go well. He said he'd always love my sister, but he thought she was choosing to be gay, and he didn't agree with that choice.

Zach Mack

Kira and I are close. And when I told her about the bet, she liked the idea of forcing Dad to confront the reality that some of his beliefs are likely wrong. But we weren't sure if that helped her situation either way.

Zach Mack

So Dad and I had a year. January came and went, and neither of us put any points on the board with the bet. Then in February, Dad caught a small break with Mayor Adams. He had been under investigation for months, and things were heating up. The FBI raided one of his advisors, and someone else pled guilty to conspiracy charges. It seemed like Dad could actually win that one.

Then in March, the New York governor sent the National Guard into the subway, which, if you squint, could look like the pretense to martial law. While we waited for the other predictions to come true or not, I tried to make the most of the time.

I found myself thinking back to something Dad said to me at the end of an argument once a few years back. He said, well, you don't really know me. And I wondered if he might be right, that maybe I didn't really know him. And if I had any hope of changing his mind or even nudging the trajectory of his beliefs, I would need to understand my father better.

So I decided to make a project of it. One question I still had was how he'd even gotten here, though, looking back, there were signs. I remember my mom telling me about how when I was a child, Dad didn't want me to get vaccinated. Mom wasn't having it, so I ended up getting all my shots. But I never really understood where Dad's hangups came from. But now that we had some time to kill, I could ask him.

Zach Mack

Back in the '60s, Dad was about to enter elementary school in Ohio, and there was a new law requiring vaccines.

Zach Mack

Dad was one of six children. The family was supported primarily by my grandpa, who had a small chiropractic business. That is, until the Ohio State Medical Board cracked down on him.

Zach Mack

The way Dad tells it, after my grandfather's business dissolved, he was never able to recover. He became so depressed that he literally couldn't get out of bed for, like, six months. And he was never the same man. That literally broke him.

Zach Mack

One of the things I remember most about my grandfather is how tall and thin he was, and how, one time when he came to visit us, his body had just completely changed. He had suddenly gained over 100 pounds in a very short amount of time. He was going through some mental health issues that the family never fully understood, and it was affecting his weight and his ability to sleep.

He wouldn't really sleep during the night, which meant that throughout the day, he would constantly fall asleep. He'd be in the middle of a conversation sometimes, or even at dinner, and he'd just start snoring. Minutes later, he'd abruptly wake up and carry on as if nothing happened.

This also began to happen while he was driving. My grandpa got into a number of car accidents. He totaled several cars and nearly killed my grandmother. He refused to stop driving and even went to a neighboring state to get a driver's license after his was taken away. He refused to admit anything was wrong.

The family tried to talk to him. So did my father several times. And when that didn't work-- and I'd never heard this part of the story before-- Dad tried something else.

Zach Mack

Not long after this-- I was 10 years old at the time-- my parents called my sister and me into the kitchen to tell us something. But before they said anything, I already knew. My grandfather was dead. His vehicle veered off the road and flipped over.

When I think about my grandfather, I think about how what caused his death may have been stubbornness, a refusal to listen to those around him. He was 68 years old, the same age my father was when he proposed our bet.

As the years pressed on, we continued discussing Dad's life and the things he'd come to believe. Turns out, a lot of his predictions were coming from a single source online. And something you should know about my father is that he really struggles with technology. He can barely navigate the internet. He can't even figure out how to access his own email account from his laptop.

Around 2019, Dad got an iPad, and that felt like a turning point. It wasn't long until he started saying weird things. One time, I was home visiting, and we got into it because he was trying to tell me that the government was controlling Facebook from the very beginning, and that Mark Zuckerberg was just a pawn. And when the pandemic hit, it felt like the perfect storm. Like so many of us, Dad went searching for answers.

Zach Mack

What Dad found was a lot of conspiracies, of course, but also the next evolution of his faith. During the pandemic, Dad came to believe strongly in prophecy, the idea that God still speaks through intermediaries.

Zach Mack

Sure enough, Dad found someone he believes can commune directly with God.

Zach Mack

Meet Julie Green, my dad's preferred prophet.

Zach Mack

She's not particularly big online, a couple 100,000 subscribers, but she's part of a growing movement within Christianity that emphasizes spiritual warfare and politics. It's all very Trumpy and full of prophecies.

Zach Mack

As you can probably tell, this is where Dad's getting most of his predictions. And when I talk to Dad about these predictions, it's clear that for him, they all stem from his religious beliefs, which I've always found somewhat confusing because when I look at his list, none of these things seem to have anything to do with God at all.

In July, some news-- President Biden announced he was withdrawing as the Democratic nominee for president. I thought, what was Dad's prediction again? Oh, he said, removed from office. Guess I'm in the clear.

As the years sped by, I read books with titles like When Prophecy Fails. I spoke to a number of clinicians and conspiracy experts, met my dad's pastors. I even interviewed several of his friends. None of them shared his beliefs, but they said they didn't really argue with him about it either. Only one said it hurt their friendship with Dad.

Sometimes I'd send Dad highlights of articles debunking some of his more out-there claims, like the one about how the Joe Biden you see on the news is actually a body double.

Zach Mack

My fact-checker wants me to point out here that we don't actually know Allen Iverson's real height, or Netanyahu's height, or whether or not Saddam Hussein had body doubles. But this is the joy of debating a conspiracy theorist. Inevitably, you run out of patience or just don't know the facts well enough to continue pushing back. So whenever I debate Dad, it feels like I can never do enough research or compile enough evidence.

Later in the summer, I was reading a science journal and saw a possible way around that. This research group was doing some experiments where they had some conspiracy theorists engage in conversations with AI chatbots, which had all the facts, could push back gently, and unlike me, had infinite patience. The data on its effectiveness looked pretty promising, so I reached out and actually got them to program something special just for my dad to try, which he did for several minutes.

Zach Mack

Swing and a miss. But the work continues.

In August, Dad got it in his head that Kamala Harris was going to be replaced as the Democratic nominee at the convention. And out of nowhere, he made a second political conspiracy bet, this time with my mom. The terms-- if Mom lost, she'd have to give up, as he put it, all mainstream media for the rest of the year. And if he lost, he'd have to stop watching Julie Green entirely, his favorite prophet. Much to Mom and I's delight, he lost that bet a few days later when Harris officially accepted the nomination.

Zach Mack

It did feel like a relief that he wouldn't be watching Julie Green anymore. And him admitting he was wrong? That was something. By the fall, Dad and I were speaking more than ever and in ways we never have.

Ira Glass

And of course, football season was kicking off, so there were lots of calls and voicemails about Ohio State.

[CHEERING]

Ira Glass

Dad and I were getting along better than ever, but time on our bet was running out.

As we stretch into November, Dad, Mom and I got hit with some sad news. After a year of nearly no contact with my father, my sister informed the family that she wouldn't be coming home for the holidays, which, in my lifetime, I count only three times we've ever missed the holidays together.

Zach Mack

I don't know either. The bet was nearly over, but it felt like our family was barely hanging on. Then December came. It was just days before Christmas, days before I was flying home and Mom called me with another update.

Zach Mack

She began to fill me in. The night before, Mom and Dad were talking about the state of the family over dinner.

Zach Mack

After 40 years of marriage, they had agreed to separate and for my dad to move out. Dad's beliefs around Kira, the conspiracies, it had just become too much.

Zach Mack

So this was the situation I flew home to. Things felt weird. I spent the week crashing at friends' houses and in hotels. Mom slept in Kira's room. Christmas Day, as you can imagine, was sad. There were no gifts exchanged. Mom and I just went to the movies and ate Chinese food. I'm not even sure what my father or sister got up to that day. A few days later, Dad said he was ready to sit down and close out the bet.

Ira Glass

Coming up, somebody's going to need to say, as promised, you were right, I was wrong, which can be such a powerful thing in any relationship. That's in a minute, Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

Ira Glass

It's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Our show today, 10 things I don't want to hate about you, about Zach Mack and his year-long bet with his dad. We've arrived at the end of December. Zach's family is not doing well. And there's still the bet.

Zach Mack

I know this sounds crazy because as bad as things had gotten, Dad was still excited about settling up. I had no idea what he was going to say. But as we often are, we started off pretty playfully, which is our way of postponing the hard stuff.

Zach Mack

I began-- no investigations, no charges, no convictions, literally no momentum of any kind.

Zach Mack

If you're keeping score at home, that's four for me.

Zach Mack

To be fair to Dad, charges in two other cases were dropped, but Dad's prediction was all charges, so that makes six for me.

Zach Mack

Seven. Onto the home stretch-- Biden will be removed from office.

And we're back to body doubles. But even still, he conceded the point, so that's eight. OK, then there's Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, who Dad predicted would be removed from office, which still might happen. But Dad said by the end of 2024.

Zach Mack

Tough break, but that makes nine. OK, last one--

Zach Mack

And that makes 10.

Zach Mack

Oh, no.

Zach Mack

Here we go.

Zach Mack

I had waited for so long to hear him say the magic words we agreed to a year ago. Now the moment finally came.

Zach Mack

To tell you the truth, hearing this was completely unsatisfying because I knew he didn't really believe it. I had won the bet, but it didn't really feel like winning.

I can't say I was surprised. All year long, I had read about how unlikely it is to pull someone away from these kinds of beliefs, how when believers of a prophecy witness it not come to pass, that oftentimes, they inexplicably double down, which was exactly what he was doing.

Zach Mack

I was getting nowhere, and it was frustrating. But I thought, this is history repeating itself. Surely, he could see that, right?

I watched his frustration rise as he came up empty over and over, slowly realizing there was no fixing this.

Zach Mack

As the conversation wound down, I let go of any notion that I could convince him of anything. I was finally ready to stop struggling and just accept the truth. I couldn't help him.

We made the bet a year ago, but I've waited a lot longer than that to have this conversation with him.

As we stood there hugging, I just broke down.

I don't know what comes next, where the family goes from here. It felt like things fell apart so quickly, but also slowly over many years. I think in many ways, I'm the one who got off the easiest. I'm still in good standing with everyone, which makes me feel a mixture of relief and guilt. And if you're wondering, yes, I took the money. Absolutely.

But on New Year's Day, the day my dad officially lost the bet--

Zach Mack

--I took him to go see Ohio State, our favorite football team, play in the Rose Bowl--

--and paid for everything.

Zach Mack

Yet another prediction my father got wrong, by the way. But they did win. Go, Buckeyes.

Zach Mack

It felt good to treat dad with his own money and to agree on the one reality we've always shared-- football-- maybe the only one we ever will. As I watched the clock run down, I knew that the moment the game was over, we'd have to face the fact that, as a family, in the end, we didn't make it.

Ira Glass

Zach Mack. He's a producer at Vox Media. His story was a collaboration with NPR's Embedded podcast, which, if you haven't heard them, you should check them out. They have lots of documentary stories like this. David Kestenbaum, on our staff, worked on the story here. The staff who worked on it there were producers Dan Girma and Ariana Gharib Lee.

Editing by Luis Trelles. Katie Simon is Embedded's showrunner. Some original music in this episode was composed by Peter Leonard. Fact-checking by Gretta Pittenger on the Embedded staff and Christopher Swetala on our staff.

NPR's Embedded is releasing a three-part series about Zach's bet with his dad that gets into material that we did not have time for here, including some revealing conversations with his dad's friends and some more interesting stuff from Zach and his dad. It is available now. You can find Embedded wherever you get your podcasts.

Ira Glass

Well, today's episode was produced by Lilly Sullivan. The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Angela Gervasi, Cassie Howley, Chana Joffe-Walt, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Frances Swanson, and Diane Wu. Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman. Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry. Special thanks today to Avery Trufelman.

If you like our show and you want more of our show, we've been cranking out bonus episodes every two weeks. This week, the bonus episode is interviews with my cousin, the composer Philip Glass, including one where he sits at a piano and he explains what he hears when he listens to his own music.

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This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks, as always, to our show's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia. Fun fact about him-- he has never seen a panda. He told me he's going to a zoo this weekend to do just that.

Ira Glass

I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.